Feminism in Horror

to me, feminism just means equality. do horror films, on average, treat women and men equally? no.

i think film is a fine place to promote positive images of women. that's what gonzoriffic does, or is trying to do. i want to see something besides the tough broad with a gun (who behaves just like a man), or the wimpy girl who finds the strength to defeat the killer, or the stripper who gets her throat slit. so i make movies that (hopefully) show us female roles and performance types that we haven't seen.

all you have to do to answer your questions is check out our threads on nudity and sex in horror movies. lots of double standards, lots of stereotypes...not much equality to be found.

For the most part feminists irritate me. Sorry but that's how I feel.
I don't want to pretend that I am super well versed in feminist ideals these days and while I understand their importance and role in fighting against spousal abuse and female empowerment in the work place etc. etc. what gets my goat is that it's not about equality it's about being better than men, I believe in balance and harmony. I could be totally wrong here which is why I probably shouldn't say anything at all but that is often the impression I got.
As for feminism in horror movies, sure there is a place for it, sometimes I even role my eyes when a woman is running through the woods with the slasher behind her and now we have our super tough vixens, we have gone to the opposite extreme, that's what is seen as pro feminist and it can be fun, for now, but eventually we'll all progress from that image of woman. Maybe the next type of woman in horror/action movies will be like Macguyver, not empowered with super strength but using her wits and skills!
But there is a reason that so many films were based on the beautiful woman running from the evil slasher, I think part of it, aside from aesthetics is that woman are in general, please don't kill me for saying this! but physically not as strong as most men and it makes it more unnerving when she is running because she really needs to get away! Now this perception is what everyone wants changed, the whole idea, but it's a horror movie, you're supposed to be afraid, you're supposed to emapthize with her and if she was some tough cookie who could handle her own and not even try to escape because she could woop the killers ass, well, it wouldn't be scary right?
What I'd like to see more of is woman against woman, without it being a lesbian fest. I think we achieved that in our film Devil's. It may seem like just another exploitation flik but it aint, it's women psychologically destroying each other and eventually physically.
This could all be widely argued I understand.

I absolutely agree Zoe with about 90% of what she said (perhaps more). You should probably write an article for PS about it!!!

I have a friend, who's a feminist, and we go toe to toe sometimes over how women are oppressed by the big, bad man.

Bullshit.

I truly believe that women keep themselves down most of the time. We're in constant competition (at least when we're younger and in our more formitive years). I always ask the question (it doesn't sound important, but it is), "Who do women dress up for? For men, or for other women?"

Women of course. a guy can tell you he looks nice but when a girl says something about your appearance, it really hits home (at least for me).

Luckily, I have somehow managed not to be bitter about how good looking my buds are (Heidi included) but I see it all around me. It's kind of sad.

Another thing I fight with her about, is she believes you're oppressing yourself by wearing makeup and a dress! Well, I like wearing makeup and dresses and I just don't understand how it's oppressing. I told her that women who revel in their femininity also have the upper hand by being comfortable with their emotions, something men are unfortunately raised to be ashamed of. I find the ability to cry in public if I want empowering.

Not sure how this relates to horror, but there you go.

So, Heidi what AM I going to write about next month? Please guide!

Amanda By Night

I think the real problem here is the ISM at the end of the word. I find that ISMs in general are bad. I'm trying to think of a good ISM... but noting is coming to mind. I'm sure one of you folks with a larger vocabulary can correct me if I'm wrong.

Regardless, stay away from ISMs and you should be fine.

I think this emoticon says it all!

I hate naturalism, marxism, and religious conservatism

Funny, I used to be anti fashion etc but now I think that wearing a dress and putting make up on is fun, as long as it makes YOU feel good and you're not just trying to mask yourself. When you don't dress like that all the time, when you do it feels different and people notice and usually compliment you. Maybe it's shallow, I don't know, but it feels good dammit! Doesn't hurt if a cute guy notices either and why should it, they're not supposed to be the enemy. The danger is that some women get obsessive or are using make-up and clothes and plastic surgery to cover up insecurities. (How did plastic surgery slip in there?)

But anyway, woman suffered through shoulder pads for way too long!
Now we can be feminine and respected at the same time!
Hell Yeah!

I think it's a good idea for a theme. The cleverness of the folks who run this joint always leaves me impressed, though, so nothing new there.

Yes. But, in fairness, they do this to every form and genre of art. And like all people who feel that they've been unfairly treated or discriminated against, historically, feminists have gotten a wee tad punchy.

To be honest, I'm glad that there are some people out there thinking about this sort of thing and looking under every rock for harmful stereotypes and negative imagery. It saves me the trouble of worrying about that crap myself...

Film is a place to promote or denote any image you want, isn't it? So if creating images of women is important to you, and you're not good with paint (a la Olivia), you might as well try a camera...

From what I've seen of people making films--even documentaries--film is an art that creates what it wants you to see. Even doscumentarians are trying to make a point, and cutting away the lines, footage and scenes which don't help to make their point.

Me too. But I like everything with a few four-letter words thrown in. I also put Mrs. Dash or red pepper flakes on my popcorn--everything is better spicy. :twisted:

There's a time and place for everything. I have no problem with a woman who reapplies her lipstick on her way out to a press conference or a date--or in any situation where a man might straighten his tie or check his hair to make sure he was looking good.

On the other hand, I'm always irrritated by people who think that a woman is going to stop to reapply her lipstick or cry about a broken nail if she's out on the battlefield, or running from a monster. Sometimes the classic feminine concern for her appearance is used as a way to suggest that women are too vain, stupid and trivial to deal with life-or-death situations. That's something that really irritates me when people do it.

I don't know about you guys, but I really do find some images of women in horror annoying. Even when they are true to life, I find the women who are really LIKE that in real life to be annoying! For example, that godawful whiney blonde in the original Night of the Living Dead...I love the movie, but dear GOD I hated that woman. I swear, by the time her zombie brother got her, I was about ready to kill and eat the dumbass myself...

--Arinn

It's so strange to try to figure out what I feel and don't feel about feminism. I do believe in equality. As in, the equal right to vote, to make the same money for the same job, and the right to a fair trial, etc...
but I still want a man who opens doors for me, I want to wear heels, and I want to be "protected" by my mate from scary sounds.

Much of what I feel is evolutionary adaptations, I know. How can I reconcile my inner instincts with my intellectual desire for equality under the law and in personal relationships?

Is there a way to separate personal male/female interactions from larger feminist ideals like reproductive control? I hope so. I am not sure if I am doing a good job of it.

I think the key to this paradox, though, is when you say you want a man to open doors for you. That is, a man--one guy who is special, and to whom YOU are special--as opposed to having this relationship with ALL men.

I mean, I personally don't want or expect every guy I meet to open the door for me--a man who hurries to open the door for me is making a gesture that has special meaning, from my point of view. I also don't want every guy to feel obligated to protect me from scary noises--but I think it means a lot when a man DOES want to protect me; when he puts himself between me and any harm, he's saying something about what I mean to him.

When there is no guy around at all, I don't sit there helpless behind a door I won't open for myself, or hide under the covers until the scary noises go away. I reckon that makes me a feminist of some sort...

Anyhoo...Feminism, to me, is about the relationship of ALL women to the world. It's about the whole gender, and the rights that we should have.

The whole thing falls apart when you start trying to apply feminism willy-nilly to personal relationships between individual people--and it's often a disaster when you haul it into the bedroom. (The same is true of any political philosophy.)

I believe women have a right to say "no" to just about anything, in general--but feminists sometimes seem to want to deny a woman the right to say "yes" to just about anything. I think that the right to say yes is just as important as the right to say no, in its way, and that some feminist rhetoric is just as bad and over-controlling as the worst male chauvinism in that regard.

I think the error that feminism has made in the last fifty years was in straying from the rights that women have in general, and focusing too much on defining "correct" behavior in our personal lives. Personal relationships and sex are just too deeply individual a thing to be covered by any rule that can apply to all women. The only thing feminism can really tell us is that we are entitled to seek happiness, satisfaction and joy in our lives--it can't tell us that something that makes us feel is right is "incorrect".

That's my opinion, anyway.

--Arinn

wow, well said, Arrin....

I didn't think of it as a separation between the general and the personal, but the way you said that sums it up perfectly. You're right: I don't want EVERY man to open the door for me. I don't want the world to think I can't open doors. I do want one man who does those things for me, just like I am sure men enjoy women cooking them dinner. But I don't think they expect a woman to always cook dinner, for everyone.

It's more about interpersonal relationships being Personal, I guess... that its okay to fulfill traditional roles with someone you care about, as long as you're both happy with it and you both do things for one another. I'd rather cook dinner than be the protector because I am a much better cook than most men I know. And likewise, men are stronger than my physically, on the whole, so I'd rather have them go check out the scary sound....

When it comes to the world though, at large, i hate not being taken seriously. Many people in this business don't take me seriously because I act reallly feminine, and because I am under 30....I hate that

In general and stopping a possible theory rant I will simply state this at the present time - in deconstructing the sociological aspects of film and the subconscious messages found in horror films feminist theory is in my opinion very helpful indeed for the film theory student and screenwriter for that matter.

Very nice discussion. I think the problems arise for peopel when they look for one way to behave that works for everyone, The is no one way, individuals need to set their own limits.
Now, horror DOES go to far often, mainly-I think-cause its dominated by men.
Doesn't mean it HAS TO be that way though

I agree. I think horror is like most male-dominated institutions; the solution is for women to just jump in with both feet and give people the elbow until they've made a place for themselves. :twisted: There will always be a few bad eggs who want to say "no girls allowed", but everyone else will probably be happy to see more women around...once they get over the shock.

--Arinn

All those things are worthy of being hated. With a fucking passion.

I guess by "naturalism" you mean those legions of coarse, unwashed filthballs--all of whom are afflicted with an aversion to soap and water-- that seem to infest the Frsico Bay Area. Makes you wonder how some people can go through life adhering to the lowest possible standard one can sink to.

Marxism--that is the political system of choice of, for, and by parasites. Any political system that views sovereign individuals as disposable assets to be used and abused at the whim of some faceless collective should be regarded with loathing and suspicion.

Religious conservatism-- However much they wish to otherwise deceive themselves, the only real "differences" between some sects of our Christian fundamentalists and the Islamic jihadists are ones of gang colors. Not principle.

Liberty or Death.. its as if you read my mind

I am beginning to despise anti-patriotism as well... and also patriotism

Shit.

I shouldn't even start since part of the reason for my being here is to steer clear of politics and ideological warfare but............

There's really a world of difference between patriotism and the kinds of butt stupid, authoritarian worshipping, gov't idolizing nationalism that is becoming our national character.

Patriotism is based on love of your country while nationalism is predicated on hating others. Of course, in our present day Neocon infested Pax Americana the two terms have become intentionally mixed up since Orwellian Doublespeak is the requisite of every nascent totalitarian regime.

Liberty,

your impeccable grammar and eloquent speech are indeed refreshing, since your ideological understanding of the state of our nation currently is so delicately thorough.

Pleasure to meet you

http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html

George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language"

:twisted:

--Arinn

thank you for mentioning the difference between nationalism and patriotism. we have seen so much nationalism (and other forms of supremacy) in this country especially since 9/11 it makes me ill.

Ah, this thread is reminding me of one of the reasons I like it here

The problem I see is that with all the flag-waving, we're being asked to feel - feel proud you're American, support the country no questions asked, etc. But then everyone forgets to think. No one wants to think about why the Towers were attacked ('because they hate freedom" - bullshit.), but feel for the victims and feel outraged that America was attacked on its own soil. But whatever you do, don't question the timeline - don't question how it happened, or why, or what led to it. Don't question why we went to war with the country that didn't attack us. Don't question our executives. Just wave that flag.

Mike

The biggest fucking irony is that it was military interventionism overseas that was the root cause of 9-11 and now these stupid myopic bastards are pursuing the very sort of foreign policy which brought about the Twin Towers attack in the first place and will guarantee many more of these attacks in the future.

Another bitter irony is how all these fucking buffoons who are in lockstep with the Busheviks' bellicose foreign policy fancy themselves "patriots" when their practices are in direct contrast to the advice of this country's Founding Fathers.

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none."--Thomas Jefferson

*Now does that sound like a rational case for armed neutrality? Or does that sound like an exhortation to go getting involved in everybody else's squabbles and feuds?*

"The United States goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is a well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. If the United States took up all foreign affairs, it would become entangled in all the wars of interest and intrigue, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own soul."-- President John Quincy Adams

*So, where the fuck does it say for us to go playing Globalcop and sticking out noses into everybody else's while creating more future enemies and have it all be done at taxpayer expense, no less???*

But then again to most of Duhhhbyuh's sychophants, the Founding Fathers are only fashionable when it can be wielded against the Democrat's excesses but when their Demigod Bush Jr. is the one running amok then all their commitment to "smaller gov't" and the USC goes down the shitter. Fucking hypocrites. :cry:

Yer welcome, amigo.

Yeah, but this butt stubborn ignorance is far from our only--or even greatest--problem.

The bottom line is that 9-11 was a totalitarian's wet dream come true. It provided an excuse for the gov't to expand far beyond it's Constitutional parameters and now warrantless searches, roving wiretaps, detaining "suspects" and holding them indefintiely in a state of incommunicado--basically a total disregard for the Writ of Habeaus Corpus---are all able to be done without any sort of accountability under the guise of fighting terrorism with the corollary benefit (from the perspective of the statist) that anyone who opposes these outrages can conveniently be labelled "unpatriotic" or "terrorist synpathizers."

Well, since We the People seem to have willingly bent over and given up our essential liberties for the gov't's promises of eternal safety--the safety of well cared for cattle, no less-- it's a safe bet that we deserve--and will receive neither.

BTW, I notice you hail from Athens, GA.

Are you familiar with Battle of Athens? Now those folks were the real patriots, IMNSHO.

Orwell was spot on.

Bottom line. Words have consequences because words are the very tools of cognition that thinking beings use to form ideas and concretize concepts and catalog information and when words are being twisted so as to be devoid of it's real meaning what is being done is nothing less than an attempt to alter and manipulate your very perception of reality.

And that single simple premise is the basis of every propaganda ploy whether it is being done as part of military intelligence psyop, for the purpose of a media spin or for the purposes of agitprop by insurgents.

Only thus can these scheming bastards tell us with a straight face that the Iraq war is a "success" despite:

1)The failure of find any WMDs which was presetned as a case of Clear and Present Danger which became the raison d'etre for going to war

2) The continuing absence of any evidence linking Saddam to Al Qaeda despite the fact that this war was sold to the public as part of the wider War on Terror

3) Labelling the insurgents as desperate "dead enders" and "holdouts" when the insurgency itself shows no sign of abating. Hell, if anything, it seems that at this point, the insurgents have captured the initiative and are dictating the terms and tempo of the conflict.

4)Hailing the elections as some sort of victory for democracy ( as if democracy is synonomous with inalienable individual liberties--it's not) when all democracy has accomplished in Iraq was bring about a de-facto Shiite theocracy so that we now have a Shiite fundamentalist crecent extending from Iran all the way to Syria and Lebanon. The end result of this whole clusterfuck has been the weakening--or total destruction-- of secularist regimes--such as Saddam's Baathist regime--which are all being replaced by Theocracies that will make rule by Sharia (Islamic Law). And here I thought these assholes in were trying to combat Islamic fundamentalism. Just another unintended consequence these delusional neocon chickenshit chickenhawks failed to factor in to their plans when they were hatching their insane scheme of building a global "benevolent hegemony" under the umbrella of a Pax Americana.

Thanks for the kind words, Ms. Heidi.8O

Believe me, the feeling's mutual. 8O 8O 8O

You said a mouthful, brother.

Can't disagree with much of what was said. Well-posted.

--Arinn

Actually its rather interesting and amusing to have the oppourtunity to watch America resume the ever famous Monroe Doctrine from overseas.

But on the other handed 'armed neutrality' is a Utopian dream and only leads to isolationism which leads to another Pearl harbour!

But what I find really funny is all those American's who bitch and complain about that idiot you have in the White House and then go ahead and vote him in with one of the biggest political landslides in your own political history!

Only in America! LOL

Tell that to the Swiss. They've been adhering to the sane and rational policy of armed neutrality of centuries and as a result many more of thier people have died from skiing accidents than from foreign wars that are none of their concern. Also I bet they are not on any terrorist's hit list or in the sights of any nuclear powers.

As for Pearl Harbor that came about because of our involvement in foreign intervention. Not in spite of it.

It was our colonial presence in the Phillipines following the Spanish American War (which had it's casus belli under questionable circumstances in the first place) which set us on a collision course with an ascendant Japan's imperial aspirations.

The fact of the matter was that even before Pearl Harbor, Japan was already stalemated in their attempted conquest of China which had became a strategic quagmire and their Kwantung Army in Manchuria had met with a setback against the Soviet Red Army in the Battle of Nomonhan.

After FDR's decision to stop selling them the raw material they needed to feed their war machine were effectively fucked and had to seize the mineral rich Far Eastern colonies of the Dutch and the British but the reason they had attacked us was because of our naval presence there as well as all the bellicose noises that FDR was making.

Another seldom asked question is why FDR allowed the Pacific Fleet at Peral to be sitting ducks when he had more than enough advance warning that an attack was underway and he had more than enough time to order the fleet to disperse and take up defensive posture?

The answer is that FDR needed a bloodbath in American lives in order to justify our entry into a war that he wanted. With a succesful attack on Pearl he had the casus belli he needed for a war that most Americans had wanted to steer clear of especially after the horrors of the First World War.

Politics have changed little since Machiavelli wrote The Prince.

Actually, IIRC, I believe that slightly more than half of this country's eligible voters turned out for the election so you I don't really know if you can label Shrub Jr's presidency as an example of bearing the stamp of approval of the majority of the American public.

In any case, it wasn't like that fucking Kerry (the Kadaver) was any better. During his campiagn speeches he acknowledged that the invasion of Iraq was a clusterfuck but his solution was to send 40,000 more troops into the Mideast quagmire. Now since when the fuck is throwing away good money after bad a sane or acceptable policy?

Y'know comparing the Democretins to the Republiclowns is like comparing the relative merits of Elephant shit to Donkey shit.

Yeah. yeah, I've heard all the straw man arguments about voting for the lesser of two evils and it's all complete and utter bollocks. That is like arguing how much sewage you are willing to have in your drinking water.

For my part I worked with Libertarian Presidential candidate Michael Badnarik --not becuase I thought he would win but because a strong showing from a third party would put the two major parties on notice that a sizable minority of voters was sick of their shit--and because I genuinely thought that most politically active Americans truly wanted individual liberty and self determination so imagine my surprise when it turned out that freedom is something that people only give lip service to.

Because when push comes to shove it seems like rather than using political activism as a means of asserting their own rights most Americans would rather wield it as a means for them to steal money from their neighbor's wallet at gov't gunpoint in order to fund their own special interests.

Also, at the end of the day most Democrats think that people are a little bit stupid so Big Gov't is required to run our lives " for our own good" while the Republicans think that all people are fundamnetally evil so Big Gov't is needed to run our lives in the interests of "upholding public morality."

Fuck them all along with the diseased horse's ass they crawled out of.

If you ask me both groups are a bunch of hypocritical statist scum who deserve to meet their end the in the noose of a rope.

wow.

Kerry DID look like a cadaver....Did anyone notice how much like the evil old doctor he looked like in ReAnimator?

LOL! That's right, he did. He was a poor canidate indeed. In fact, I was all over the Peace & Freedom party mostly because they had a Native American running for Pres with a woman... now that's balls!

Amanda By Night

heidi you are one of my favorite people. ever.

"mister bush! i suggest you get yourself a PEN!"

Great responses guys,

personally, I'd liek to see more females in movies psychologically destroying each other and one of them finally gets the girl who starts it in the end.

Here, here!

I wholeheartedly agree that women spend far too much time trying to complete with each other. I think there are a number of factors, though. I do blame the media with a lot of it because it is so unfair to women.

Eli Roth and Rob Zombie are practically household names for directing, admittedly, Zombie was in music forever, but still, where's the female directors?

Today, we're not only supposed to be super-moms, we're supposed to be workaholics, caring for parents/hubby/children at the same time, and still have time for yoga and therapy, well you know what I mean.

All the while, men are still just working at regular 8 hr.jobs, coming home, having their toys, expecting women to have dinner and all of that ready, just as in the 1950s. Sort of like going from oppression of one kind to oppression of another. I was a stay-at-home mom for a long time. I didn't have anything coming in. Didn't bother any men I know. They didn't think anything of it. It seemed to be the women who had the problems with it. I wrote, but didn't have anywhere to submit to. That was "way back when."

We really are supposed to be "Unique... Just like everyone else."

I would like to see more equality and less assumption. Sure, we have to work just like everyone else, but men don't really have the same crap hanging over their heads. They can look like Michael Moore and be celebrated (just an example, no offense), meanwhile, women are supposed to be Elvira.

I've had multiple people assume I write romance or erotica (or poetry) just because I'm female. Of course, when I tell them it's horror that usually freaks the crap out of them, so that's cool.

It's natural for a woman to want to look her best, whether or not it's through cosmetics and dress. I've went through periods of both. I wear makeup now, but can't say how I'll be in the future.

I think beauty is a spectrum far greater than the physical dimensions the world acknowledges. Outward stuff is just "icing," but the "cake" is what should be sweetest. Mannequins can be "beautiful." Posters can be gorgeous. Paper dolls can be fashionable.

But, none of those will ever be kind, considerate, loyal, talented, or anything that's actually important.

Just my two cents.

The women directors are SORELY under represented on other horror websites. Remember, that short of Rue Morgue Magazine, and a few smaller sites, the BIG horror sites are all run and edited by men. And those men want to be friends with other guys in horror, so they promote them as much as possible. Women just don't fall into their equation except as hot actresses in horror movies.

Sigh.

I guess women will just have to do it themselves.

I hate the "buddy system." I've seen it I don't know how many times. I get aggravated with the man crushes or whatever they call them. Men can't hide their giddiness well.

I still can't figure out how man, who are pretty clueless of real life horror, gained the higher ground. It's astounding.

Hmm. Maybe one day someone here will land a massive publishing or film contract and can buy up the internet for a few days...lol. That would be cool. Just bombard every horror related site and publication by purchasing all their ad space.

Hee-hee. Could have a slogan like "Thanks boys, but the girls can take it from here..."

That reminds me of something I saw on TV once.

They had a very attractive young woman with what was very obviously a dead body wrapped up in a carpet (fake dead body, but very realistic) stopping guys walking by for help putting the carpet in the trunk of her car and asking them for directions to the nearest bridge suitable for throwing things off of. It was amazing how the guys flirted and drooled all over her and totally overlooked that there was a dead body rolled up in the carpet.

Clueless. Totally clueless.

Jessica

i love this.

I like that! What movie was that? It has a tendency to make you wonder though.

I don't mean to give all men a hard time, I just love being able to vent about these things with people who can relate so well. I have about 20 years of aggravation pent up. You say anything in a general situation and so often it's misconstrued as "bashing" men. Even if your comment isn't directed at any single man in particular.

Individually, men are wonderful. I just question them in groups.

It wasn't a movie, it was a hidden camera show.

Jessica